Baron Klaus Wulfenbach: Fraulein Bookworm, if you might start with the general introduction.
Bookworm Hienrichs: Welcome, everyone, to this month's Aether Salon! Today, Duchess Liz Wilner and Wizardess Oriella Charik will teach us about proper protocol when out and about in the Steamlands. Before we get started, a few housekeeping items:
1) To ensure you can hear the speaker, stand or sit on the patterned carpet.
2) If you do not have a wearable chair and wish one, please contact myself or the Baron.
3) Please remove all lag-feeding whatevers you might be wearing. It is Sunday, after all.
4) A tip jar is out for our speaker. Do please show your appreciation!
5) Any tips to help support the establishment will also be welcome - just click on one of the support signs!
6) If you're not a member of the AEther Salon group, there are signs that will let you join up. You'll be most heartily welcome!
7) Edited and unedited transcripts of these proceedings will be posted at aethersalon.blogspot.com.
And now, please give your attention to Baron Klaus Wulfenbach as he introduces our speakers.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach: Welcome, everyone. Those of you who might not travel often might not have met the Duchess Liz Wilmer of Trikassi, a Duchy in Winterfell, nor met her Wizardess in residence, Oriella Charik. The Duchess is a mainstay of Winterfell society, and delights in creating events for the enjoyment of all. They both dance excellently.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach grins.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach: Damen, you have the floor.
Liz Wilner: Thank you Baron :) And thank you all for coming :)
Today, Lady Charik and I will be discussing Precedence and Protocol If everyone could take a set of notecards from the placard next to Lady Charik...that might help to follow along
Precedence is a formal way of determining a person’s position in Society. In times of change it can fall behind the reality of power, but it will always attempt to catch up. Protocol is the manner in which the various ranks behave amongst each other
Oriella Charik: In this talk we deal specifically with Precedence in England unless otherwise stated. Other European countries have similar rankings, as does the realm of Fairyland.
In a Notecard in our placard, please touch to obtain, we have a detailed list of Precedence from the Sovereign down to Gentlemen. Royalty comes first, of course! Then follow certain persons by virtue of their offices, such as Archbishops. After them come Peers, who are members of the House of Lords. The House of Lords being the Upper Chamber in Parliament
Liz Wilner: For women...it can get complicated. The precedence of WOMEN is determined, before marriage, by the Rank and Dignity, but not by the Office, of their father. All the unmarried sisters in any family have the same degree, which is the degree that their eldest Brother holds (or would hold) amongst men. Thus of the sons of an earl, the eldest alone has an honorary title of nobility and is styled “My Lord” whilst all the Daughters of an Earl have a similar honorary Title and are styled “My Lady.”
Dr. Henry Jekyll raises his hand.
Liz Wilner: yes?
Dr. Henry Jekyll (nyanka.jinx): If only the eldest son is styled "My Lord," then what of the younger sons?
Oriella Charik: Younger sons have no title by right
Dr. Henry Jekyll: Ah. Thank you.
Oriella Charik: Their fathers may well regard them as wastrels!
Liz Wilner laughs
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Younger sons get the military and the priesthood.
Liz Wilner: the next son in line gets the title if the eldest dies
Liz Wilner: Marriages to commoners do not affect Precedence. Thus if the two elder daughters of a duke were to marry an Earl and a Baron respectively whilst the youngest daughter were to run away with the footman, she would nevertheless rank as the daughter of a Duke above her sisters ranking as wives of an Earl and a Baron.
If a woman inherits a title, when she marries she retains that title regardless of the station of her husband. She does, however, have the luxury of adding a higher title should her husband be of higher rank than herself. Hence, a hereditary Duchess who marries a Prince may style herself as Princess, due to her husband’s rank, but she never loses Duchess should he die. In the opposite case, should a hereditary Duchess marry her footman, she still retains her rank as Duchess, but her husband is not accorded Duke.
Oriella Charik: In this respect we make so bold as to refer to our own Baron Wulfenbach, whose wife is a Baronin when she accompanies him whilst retaining her own higher rank if she chooses when she does not.
The phrase ‘in their own right’ can be used to make it clear that a woman holds an inherited title. This is the case for Countess Eldemar of Fairyland, whose husband has been accorded the courtesy title of Lord but is not a Count.
We note that Gilbert and Sullivan’s opera ‘Iolanthe’ concludes with all Fairies being required to marry mortals or be executed. They choose to marry Peers (as any Lady would).
A Peer is a person who is entitled to a seat in the House of Lords. There are some exceptions to this – Irish Peers for example had their seats revoked when Ireland became a Republic. Under present British Law there are not enough seats allotted to hereditary Peers for them to all be seated, so they hold elections to decide who shall represent them. Baronets are another exception: though hereditary they are not Peers.
Some titles are hereditary. Whether they can be inherited by women or must pass to the next male in succession varies according to their Patents. Others are attached to the holder’s circumstances. The Prince of Wales is so because he is eldest son of the Sovereign, when he becomes King the title passes on to his son. The Sovereign has a number of ‘spare’ titles she can bestow on her immediate family as required, indeed she can devise titles if she chooses and ‘break the rules’ if she chooses
Mosseveno Tenk: patents?
Oriella Charik: (a patent of Creation is granted by the Sovereign for a new Title)
For example when Diana Princess of Wales divorced from her husband she should have reverted to her previous status as the daughter of an Earl, but the Queen decreed that she should keep her title. When the Prince married again his wife was not made a Princess but took his secondary title and became the Duchess of Cornwall
Many senior titles have a secondary title of lower rank attached to them. Some have several – the Dukes of Norfolk have accumulated nine. The first of these is normally given as a courtesy title to the eldest son, in Norfolk’s case his heir is the Earl of Arundel.
I now turn to the Duchess to explain the social graces!
Liz Wilner: First...in conversation....
In England Royalty are addressed socially as ‘Sir’ or ‘Ma’m’, but formally as ‘Your Majesty’ if such and ‘Your Royal Highness’ if not.
A Prince who is the ruler in his country is usually a “Serene Highness” to distinguish him from lesser Princes.
Dukes and Duchesses are addressed as ‘Duke’ and “Duchess” informally, ‘Your Grace’ formally for both.
Other Peers are ‘Lord xxx’ informally, ‘My Lord’ or ‘Your Lordship’ formally. The actual title is not used in conversation unless confusion would result.
Eldest sons are normally addressed by father’s secondary title, younger sons and all daughters add their first names to distinguish them: “Lady Mary xxx”.
‘Honourable’ is a courtesy title used in writing, but not conversation. One always uses the titles in at least first addressing each other.
Certain formalities in addition to conversation would be bowing and curtseying. A bow in England is a lowering of the head, not the body as in for example Japan. This head bow is not a “bobbing” of the head, but rather a dignified lowering of the head towards one’s chest. In Europe more elaborate bows may be used, as is often seen in movies.
A curtsey is bending the knees---a slow lowering of one’s body/torso down by the knees and back up straight. It is an acknowledgement of respect. If a wife’s husband is present she is accorded such respect according to her husband’s status, not her own. These are made to those of superior rank. A Princess does not curtsey to mere Dukes or any others below!
Some links to Second Life animations:
And this brings us to the order and protocol at events
Arrivals and Departures (applies to all Royalty and Peerage worldwide)
The Order of Precedence is arranged primarily for the convenience of the most high ranking person attending. For instance at a large State gathering the Sovereign would arrive last, so as not to be sitting waiting for all others to assemble. The Sovereign’s entrance would include his/her family following in their order of precedence.
In the event of a smaller function, as in a dinner party, then the Sovereign arrives and leaves first, both in arriving at the place of the dinner as well going into the actual dining room. In the event of a large Ball, as a for instance, the host or hostess accompanies the highest ranking personage into the Ball. From there the second ranking and others following in according to their ranking. The first dance is always begun by the host/hostess and the highest ranking, if appropriate. If not, then the highest ranking, not the host, may choose an appropriate partner and open the festivities When leaving, guests wait until the highest ranking leaves first (unless there is of course some VERY good reason that cannot wait).
Oriella Charik: That concludes our talk, any questions we can at least attempt to answer!
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Antiquity has some interesting variations on this - they have one or two ranks or levels within each title.
Oriella Charik: In the Steamlands, Serra Seneshal of Winterfell we think ranks as a Princess
Oriella Charik: and the Guv.nah of Caledon as a representitive of a Sovereign outranks all in that country
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Duchess Liz, how did you come about to be the Duchess of Trikassi?
Liz Wilner: ah...Baron...I inherited my title
Liz Wilner: via my Father's line
Liz Wilner: my sisters are Duchesses as well...each given lands too, as I was given Trikassi
Bookworm Hienrichs: Do patents differ at the same level? So, for instance, one Lordship could be passed to a daughter, while with another Lordship of the same level of rank would only pass to a male?
Oriella Charik: Patents are granted individually.
Oriella Charik: I would not presume to attempt a ranking of the Clockwinder in his presence
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander) chuckles
Dr. Henry Jekyll (nyanka.jinx): Mayor is technically a rank, is it not?
Jimmy Branagh: Oy think 'ee's th' Boss. Period
Tepic Harlequin: Mayor is a civil rank, not a social one, i think?
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): He was elected, so ja.
Liz Wilner: Mayors are not members of the nobility necessarily...as they can be elected from a variety of circumstances
Wildstar Beaumont: I guess New Babbage is a republic, since it holds elections
Jedburgh Dagger (jedburgh30.dagger): Lord Mayor of London is in the precedent list
Mosseveno Tenk: hmpf
Tepic Harlequin: that's cus he's a Lord as well :-)
Beryl Strifeclaw (gager): We have a Duke though?
Beryl Strifeclaw (gager): Not locally a Duke though
Jedburgh Dagger (jedburgh30.dagger): Caledonian immigrant
Dr. Henry Jekyll (nyanka.jinx): Yes, that is true. Duke Edward Peasre, I think.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander) nods
Oriella Charik: The Lord Mayor is certain;ly there, London has a second Mayor who actually does the work
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Duke of Argylle.
Jedburgh Dagger (jedburgh30.dagger): New Babbage has no Dukes
Garnet Psaltery: For the same reason I don't use the title of Duchess
Bookworm Hienrichs chuckles.
Bookworm Hienrichs: One for show and one for work, eh?
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): He is also a Knight of the Court of the Rose, which is a Ducal court.
Jedburgh Dagger (jedburgh30.dagger) points up to my previous statement
Liz Wilner: in my homeland, I also rank as Princess...but as landowner of Trikassi, I am styled Duchess
Oriella Charik: There is of course the quiestion of Wizards
Oriella Charik: I was assured they rank wherever they like, on account of being liable to turn people into things
Oriella Charik: Wizards are wizards, male or female
Oriella Charik: and certainly not witches
Mosseveno Tenk: I was hoping to hear more about steamland ranks.
Wildstar Beaumont: Mayor Tenk .. you want to ignite drama ! *grins*
Garnet Psaltery: Many steamlanders are rank for various reasons, such as not bathing, or living near the canals
Mosseveno Tenk: steamland rankings are a bit mystifying to us here in the city.
Myrtil Igaly: That's just titles, once you know someone is a Duke, you call them Duke, if they're a Baron, you say Baron, etc.
Myrtil Igaly: that's my understanding!
Beryl Strifeclaw (gager): That's pretty much what we do yes. If we even bother to think that much about it
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): I can explain Caledonian titles.
Darlingmonster Ember ears perk
Mosseveno Tenk: which estates use titles?
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): If one owns a homestead or the equivalent thereof in a full sim, it is the tradition that they may style themselves as Duke or Duchess.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Half a homestead is a Marquis or Marquise, although I've only seen one of those.
Oriella Charik: Marquis is a rare title in England also
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): There is no designation for lesser amounts of land.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): There are many European titles not incorporated into the English system, and it gets very complicated.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Antiquity is the only other land with any extensive use of titles.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Fraulein Wizardess, might you touch on Salic Law?
Oriella Charik: I think Salic law prevents women from ruling, as in France
Dr. Henry Jekyll (nyanka.jinx): Salic Law doesn't sound very fair, I think.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Especially not for well-trained daughters.
Oriella Charik: In England we have had rulung Queens for some while
Darlingmonster Ember: And in some countries, there is law regards men ruling.
Dr. Henry Jekyll (nyanka.jinx): Yes, like Queen Victoria, for instance.
Darlingmonster Ember: Or not
Cody Lowey (dakota.tebaldi): And their 'usbands don't get to be called King, either!
Liz Wilner: in Salic Law...a woman must marry the King to be Queen...but cannot rule in their own right
Myrtil Igaly: They'll rule for their son if he's too young
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Sometimes they will rule anyway, behind a figurehead.
Liz Wilner: Eili? did you have a question?
Eilidh McCullough: Regarding Steamlands titles such as Caledonian Duchies, are they retained on loss of the land?
Garnet Psaltery: Yes
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): I have always said 'Once a Duchess, always a Duchess'. It is a courtesy.
Jedburgh Dagger (jedburgh30.dagger): They must by the number of ex-pats
Garnet Psaltery: Besides, Des gave me mine just because he could
Oriella Charik: The title would then be a courtesy one
Eilidh McCullough: Thank you
Garnet Psaltery: the land was extra
Tepic Harlequin: Once a King, always a King, but once a Knight is enough fer anybody!
Oriella Charik: A ruler ccan break the rules of course
Myrtil Igaly: Isn't Mister Emerson a double knight or something?
Jimmy Branagh: We hav one of those now ...
Cody Lowey (dakota.tebaldi): Tryin to 'member all them titles gotta be a royal pain for them as gotta do it, I say....
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): That is why there are heralds and secretaries.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): In fact, I am surprised Fraulein Davies isn't here today.
Zantabraxus (zantabraxus.aristocarnas): It would seem upon releasing the land in Caledon, one would also release the title accompanying the status of owning the land.
Zantabraxus (zantabraxus.aristocarnas) waves a hand "But custom is custom."
Garnet Psaltery: Well as I said, I got mine differently
Darlingmonster Ember: nods, it is peculiar to the tradition
Darlingmonster Ember: It is also true that many of those who are Dukes/Duchesses in Caledon do not use the title.
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Sometimes the land is re-named, so the titles become unique.
Garnet Psaltery: There'll never be another Whitby *grins*
Oriella Charik: Shall we conclude Baron, as our time is up?
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Duchess Magdalena, for example - ja, Fraulein Ember?
Darlingmonster Ember: Just so. Yes
Baron Klaus Wulfenbach (klauswulfenbach.outlander): Our time is indeed up. One more round of applause for the Damen, and I will pick up the tipjar in a moment.
Bookworm Hienrichs: Be sure to join us April 19th at 2PM SLT, when Jimmy Branagh regales us on "FREAKS: A Study of Carnival Tent Culture in the late 19th Century!"
ORDER OF PRECEDENCE
The Prince of Wales
The Younger sons of the Sovereign
The Grandsons of the Sovereign
The Brothers of the Sovereign
The Archbishop of Canterbury
The Lord Chancellor
The Archbishop of York
The Lord High Treasurer
The Lord President of the Council
The Lord Privy Seal
** The following Great Officers of the State precede all Peers of their own Degree–that is, if Dukes, they precede all other Dukes; if Earls, all other Earls, etcetera.
The Lord Great Chamberlain
The High Constable
The Earl Marshal
The Lord High Admiral
The Lord Steward of the Royal Household
The Lord Chamberlain of the Royal Household
The Master of the Horse
** The Peers of each Degree take Precedence in their own Degree according to the Date of their Patents of Creation. (in Second Life we feel this should be the Second Life Birthdate, specifically the year of first rez as given in their Profiles).
Dukes and Duchesses
Marquesses and Marchionesses
Eldest sons of Dukes
Earls and Countesses (also Count or Comte in other European countries---the equivalent)
Eldest sons of Marquesses
Younger sons of dukes
Eldest sons of earls
Younger sons of Marquesses
Bishops of (a) London, (b) Durham, and (c) Winchester
Bishops, according to Seniority of Consecration
Barons and Baronesses (often referred to Baronin elsewhere)
The Speaker of the House of Commons
Commissioners of Great Seal
The (a) Treasurer and the (b) Comptroller of the Royal Household
Vice-Chamberlain of the Household
The Secretaries of States, when not Peers
Eldest sons of viscounts
Younger sons of earls
Eldest sons of barons
Knights of the Garter, Thistle and St. Patrick, not being Peers
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster
The Lord Chief Justice
The Master of the Rolls
Lord Justices of Appeal and the President of Probate Court
Judges of High Court
Younger sons of Viscounts
Younger sons of Barons
Baronets (does not have a seat in House of Lords, but can be inherited)
Knights of the Grand Cross of the Bath
Knights Grand Commanders of the Star of India
Knights Grand Cross of St. Michael and St. George
Knights Grand Commanders of Indian Empire
Knights Grand Cross of Victorian Order
Knights Commanders of the various Orders (in the same order of progression)
Commanders of Victorian Order
County Court Judges
Masters in Lunacy
Companions of the various Orders
Members of Fourth Class of Victorian Order
Companions of Distinguished Service Order
Eldest sons of the Younger sons of Peers
Eldest sons of Baronets
Eldest sons of Knights
Members of Fifth Class of Victorian Order
Baronets’ Younger sons
Knights Younger sons
Esquires: Including the Eldest sons of the sons of Viscounts and Barons, the eldest sons of all the younger sons of Peers and their eldest sons in perpetual Succession, the younger sons of Baronets, the sons of knights, the eldest son of the eldest son of a Knight in perpetual succession, persons holding the King’s Commission, or who may be styled “Esquire” by the King in any Official Document
Serra, Seneshelf of Winterfell ranks as a Sovereign Princess. Her daughter Selena is a Princess Royal.
The Gov’nah of Caledon is the representative of a Sovereign and therefore assumes her rank in her absence, above anyone else in Caledon.