Edward Pearse:
Heraldry is the profession, study, or art of creating, granting, and blazoning arms and ruling on questions of rank or protocol, as exercised by an officer of arms. I am neither a professional Herald nor an expert. Just a very enthusiastic amateur :-)
There are a variety of differences between heraldry in different countries. Most of what I will be discussing here concerns English heraldry as that is what I'm most familiar with.
The use of symbols to identify kings goes back as far as ancient Egypt. The tribes of Israel are each supposed to have a standard and the Legions of the Roman Army were identifiable by the symbols on their shields.
Origins as identification for individuals came to the fore in the 12th century. Geoffrey V (1113 - 1151), Count of Anjou has the first recorded use of a coat of arms. His shield of blue with gold lions was part of his memorial enamel.
England's Henry II is believed to have used a pair of gold lions as his personal arms, although the colours are unknown. His son Richard, added a third lion and this symbol of three lions has continued to be the Royal Arms of England to this day.
The Language of heraldry is Norman French. Just as English has words in it derived from Latin, so too does French (and German and most European languages for that matter).
A Blazon, is a word "map" to describe a coat of arms. The colours are called "Tinctures" and are made up of two metals, five colours, and two furs. Tinctures: Metals of Or (gold) and Argent (silver/white). Colours Azure (blue), Gules (red), Purpure (purple), Sable (black), Vert (green). Later heraldry incorporates three additional colours. Additional later colours include Tenné (brown), Murrey (wine), Sanguine (blood red). The cross hatching on the right side is how the colours are depicted when you only have the option of black & white drawings to display
The shield can be divided into several sections. Over these can be laid various lines, called "ordinaries". Some of you may have heard the rumour that a "bar sinister" denotes royal illegitimacy. This means you have been reading too many romance novels. A "fess" is a French word for Bar (or barre). As you can see on the chart, it's horizontal. It's possible to have a "bend sinister" but a bar sinister doesn't even exist.
Rather than just a straight line, the divisions can also be separated by patterns. But there's only so many ways that you can use a line to help break up the shield image, so people also used "Charges". Charges are animals, objects and people on the shield. Lions are pretty popular in Scottish and English heraldry.
Now, the top three are all "Lion Rampant", just to give you an idea of the artistic differences that still happen with an identical charge. "Rampant" is three legs raised in the air. Each of the positions of the lions has a different word to describe it. Sejent, passant, Statant
Linus Lacombe: What's the one saucily stick out his tongue called?
Edward Pearse: Lion Rampant Guardant. The Guardant means the face of the beast it towards the viewer.
One of the biggest myths about heraldry is the existence of a "family" coat of arms. No. Such. Thing. A coat of arms is like a title, you have to wait for the previous owner to die before you can lay claim to it.
Cullan: Although when one is a member of a clan, he is allowed to display his Chief's arms. Just like any retainer to a Lord. Land and names--the Kent area has the infamouse Cinque Port arms. Look at Hastings and Dover. Many families also re-use certain displays from father to son.
Edward Pearse: IF, and it's a big if, the titles is entailed to the property, then yes arms goes with the land, but they're rather rare now days.
Now, since only one person at a time may hold an achievement of arms, there comes into play a system called Cadency. This means you overlay the original arms with a mark to show you're in line to inherit. If you look across to my right, the bottom row shows the arms of the various sons of Queen Elizabeth II. Charles on the far left, then Andrew, followed by William and Harry. The diamond above them is Beatrice; since she's a girl she doesn't get a shield, she has a lozenge. When Elizabeth dies, the marks will then change with the succession
Obviously, not everyone inherits the main arms. Second and third sons usually add a change to show they are related but still have their own personal arms. Marks of Cadency aren't marks of succession, they're marks to show which son you are, until you're granted your own arms... Here's some examples of how arms may change with generations and marriages
Cadency is done a little differently in Scotland--usually noted with a border around the arms, rather than a label over it. As you can see here the original coat of arms stays the same on the left as it passes from generation to generation.
Now I think just about everyone on the planet heard about a small royal wedding last year.
Solace Fairlady: so the Royal heralds scurried to invent her a coat of arms?
Edward Pearse: And yes, the Middleton arms were done in a hurry. Hers are the top left. The blue bow indicates an unmarried woman. Once she was married and became Duchess of Cambridge her arms changed to those in the middle. Half Middleton, half Prince William.
Now, some families will keep the quartering to show they have a really good pedigree when it comes to important people. Some get a little carried away in my opinion. Possibly one of those with an important title but flat broke.
These were the arms for the Emperor of Austria Hungry as of 1915
OK, and these arms are for the university of Plymouth, granted as recently as 2008
And I'm going to skip over the Battle of Barnet story since we started so late. Ceejay, would you like to issue numbers for the questioners? :-)
Ceejay Writer: Ummmmmmm okay! Those with questions, please state your name to me.
Edward Pearse: Since hand won't work :-)
Ceejay Writer: I have one in the queue. Queue going once, going twice....
Edward Pearse: Ask away then
Ceejay Writer: Also, another reminder tht tips may be paid to the posters at the rear of the venue, thank you! Right then - Ethan Paul, your question?
Osric Worbridge: http://www.barnet.gov.uk/index/leisure-culture/libraries/archives/archives-histories/archives-barnethistories/archives-barnet-battleofbarnet.htm
Ethan Paul III: When two power countries lets say england and spain arange to have two equal rulers marry how is the coat of arms decided for the heir ?
Edward Pearse: Usually, the arms would be divided on the shield like Kate Middleton's
Ethan Paul III: Would that then blend into a new country
Edward Pearse: The male on the dexter (left as you face the shield) side
Cullan: Dimidated.
Edward Pearse: Well when Richard I was King of England, he didn't really care about it much. He was more interested in his lands in Normandy and Aquitaine. But "King" is a good title, and England gave him gold to bugger off on crusade
Cullan: When people marry, thier arms can be dimidated. They do not create a new country, because the right of Kingship falls to the male. Wimminz cant be king. Unless your name is Elizabeth.
Osric Worbridge: Queen Mary of England remained Sovereign while married to King Phillip of Spain.
Edward Pearse: When James the VI of Scotland inherited the throne of England his personal arms were revised to show the two Kingdoms. But the two remained separate countries, and did for another 200 years
Cullan: The marriage between Mary and Phillip was decided upon by rule of Parliament. They only agreed to it if England didn't become Spain's pet
Edward Pearse: So, yes the current arms for Elizabeth show the Royal Arms of England in the two corners and the arms of Scotland and Ireland in the other two. Wales doesn't get a look in :-)
Cullan: Unless shes in Scotland, and then they are switched
Edward Pearse: Yep
Edward Pearse: Couple of linkies for people:
The Use and Abuse of the Coat of Arms and Crest
By William Armstrong Crozier (published 1905)
http://www.genealogymagazine.com/heuseandabof.html
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Faq.htm
Pssst! Want to Buy Your Family's Coat of Arms?
http://learn.ancestry.com/LearnMore/Article.aspx?id=4133
Monday, January 16, 2012
Heraldry! (Unedited Transcript)
((Technical difficulties made for a late start.))
[14:41] Edward Pearse: Heraldry is the profession, study, or art of creating, granting, and blazoning arms and ruling on questions of rank or protocol, as exercised by an officer of arms.
[14:41] Edward Pearse: I am neither a professional Herald nor an expert
[14:41] Edward Pearse: Just a very enthusiastic amateur :-)
[14:41] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[14:41] Darlingmonster Ember: we like those
[14:42] Solace Fairlady: they come cheaper than the other two as well
[14:42] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[14:42] Darlingmonster Ember: grins
[14:42] Edward Pearse: There are a variety of differences between heraldry in different countryies
[14:42] Edward Pearse: Most of what I will be discussing here concerns English heraldry as that is what I'm most familiar with
[14:43] Edward Pearse: The use of symbols to identify kings goes back as far as ancient Egypt.
[14:43] Edward Pearse: The tribes of Isreal are each supposed to have a standard and the Legions of the Roman Army were identifyable by the symbols on their shields.
[14:44] Edward Pearse: Origins as identification for individuals came to the fore in the 12th century.
[14:45] Edward Pearse pauses as he waits for the texture upload to get to the right texture
[14:47] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): (I still see grey)
[14:47] Edward Pearse: OK, should load now
[14:47] Darlingmonster Ember: ((is sstarting... got one texture on grid))
[14:47] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): (mana from the Heavens!)
[14:47] Edward Pearse: Geoffrey V (1113 - 1151), Count of Anjou has the first recorded use of a coat of arms.
[14:47] Solace Fairlady: i see the current royal coat of arms?
[14:47] Tepic Harlequin: oh! a picture of a bloke with a sword!
[14:48] Jimmy Branagh: ((One on grid, one near Edward))
[14:48] Edward Pearse: His shield of blue with gold lions was part of his memorial enamel.
[14:48] Osric Worbridge: ((Giants vs. Packers 10 to 10))
[14:48] Bookworm Hienrichs: ((Yes, look up front, not on the big thing ont he side.))
[14:48] Solace Fairlady: seeing both
[14:48] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): i seee...what is that, willaims?
[14:48] Edward Pearse: England's Henry II is believed to have used a pair of gold lions as his personal arms, although the colours are unknown.
[14:49] Edward Pearse: His fHis son Richard, added a third lion and this symbol of three lions has continued to be the Royal Arms of England to this day.
[14:49] Sera (serafina.puchkina): interesting!
[14:49] Tepic HarlequinTepic Harlequin imagines King Henry with lions as arms....
[14:51] Osric Worbridge: Tinctures, and metals, and furs! Oh My!
[14:51] Solace Fairlady: sounds like a usual night out
[14:53] Osric Worbridge: ((The text is lost in the back ground. Perhaps a prim places behind it for contrast, your Grace?))
[14:53] Edward Pearse: Bah and that's loaded transparent
[14:54] Edward Pearse: OK
[14:54] Edward Pearse: The Language of heraldry is Norman French
[14:54] Edward Pearse: Just as English has words in it derived from Latin, so too does French
[14:55] Edward Pearse: (and German and most European languages for that matter)
[14:55] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): German isnt a romantic language....
[14:55] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Neither is English.
[14:55] Edward Pearse: A Blazon, is a word "map" to describe a coat of arms
[14:55] Tepic Harlequin: no, but English has German roots as well as roots from the others,...
[14:56] Darlingmonster Ember: listens
[14:56] Edward Pearse: The colours are called "Tinctures"
[14:56] Edward Pearse: And are made up of two metals
[14:56] Edward Pearse: Five colurs
[14:57] Edward Pearse: and two furs
[14:57] Edward Pearse: Tinctures: Metals of Or (gold) and Argent (silver/white). Colours Azure (blue), Gules (red), Purpure (purple), Sable (black), Vert (green).
[14:57] Edward Pearse: Later heraldry incorporates three additional colours
[14:58] Edward Pearse: Additionally later colours include Tenné (brown), Murrey (wine), Sanguine (blood red)
[14:59] Edward Pearse: The cross hatching on the right side is how the colours are depicted when you only have the option of black & white drawings to display
[14:59] Darlingmonster Ember: nods, pen and ink
[14:59] Darlingmonster Ember: nice
[15:00] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Petra Sancta method.
[15:01] Edward Pearse: The shield can be divided into several sections
[15:02] Edward Pearse: Over these can be laid various lines, called "ordinaries"
[15:03] Bookworm Hienrichs feels her eyes glaze over at the complexity.
[15:03] Edward Pearse: Some of you may have heard the rumour that a "bar sinister" denotes royal illigitinacy
[15:03] Linus Lacombe: Simon Bar Sinister?
[15:03] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): >.> This is nothin' babes...
[15:03] Edward Pearse: This means you have been reading too many romance novels
[15:03] Osric Worbridge: lol
[15:03] Darlingmonster Ember: laughs
[15:03] Darlingmonster Ember: guilty
[15:04] Edward Pearse: A "fess" is a french word for Bar (or barre)
[15:04] Edward Pearse: As you can see on the chart it's horizontal
[15:04] Edward Pearse: It's possible to have a "bend sinister" but a bar sinister doesn't even exist
[15:05] Edward Pearse: Rather than just a straight line, the divisions can also be separated by patterns
[15:07] Edward Pearse: But there's only so many ways that you can use a line to help break up the shield image
[15:07] Edward Pearse: So people also used "Charges"
[15:08] Edward Pearse: Charges are animals, objects and people on the shield
[15:09] Wildstar: this is terrific but my time's up and regretfully I must go .... good night all
[15:09] Edward Pearse: Lions are pretty popular in Scottish and English heraldry
[15:09] Linus Lacombe: Good night
[15:09] Darlingmonster Ember: waves, safe travels
[15:09] Solace Fairlady: god night dmiral!
[15:09] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): All them royal folks runnin around, and all...
[15:10] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Not the mention the Royal Tressure...
[15:10] Darlingmonster Ember: mmm quite a pride
[15:10] Osric Worbridge: ouch .. pun
[15:11] Edward Pearse: OK, any of these still grey over here?
[15:11] Linus Lacombe: nope, I can see them all
[15:11] Tepic Harlequin: darn..... i have ter go, an it's very interesting too!
[15:11] Sera (serafina.puchkina): I can see them
[15:11] Osric Worbridge: 2 on top
[15:11] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Theres one or two near the top
[15:11] Darlingmonster Ember: top right, top left
[15:11] Solace Fairlady: 2 on top
[15:11] Darlingmonster Ember: coming in on right
[15:11] Linus Lacombe: oh yes, two on top not rezzin
[15:11] Rain (eochai): Nini, Tepic :)
[15:12] Arnold (gager): Night.
[15:12] Tepic Harlequin: night all!
[15:12] Solace Fairlady: top right trying to rez in
[15:12] Darlingmonster Ember: coming in on left
[15:12] Linus Lacombe: here they come in
[15:12] Darlingmonster Ember: grand
[15:12] Solace Fairlady: there they are
[15:12] Osric Worbridge: 3 lions rampant, can see them
[15:13] Edward Pearse: Now, the top three are all "Lion Rampant"
[15:13] Edward Pearse: Just to give you an idea of the artistic differences that still happen with an identical charge
[15:14] Edward Pearse: "Rampant" is three legs raised in the air
[15:14] Sera (serafina.puchkina): I didn't know that
[15:14] Edward Pearse: Each of the positions of the lions has a different word to describe it
[15:14] Edward Pearse: Sejent, passant, Statant
[15:14] Linus Lacombe: What's the one saucily stick out his tongue called?
[15:15] Edward Pearse: Facing the front?
[15:15] Linus Lacombe: Yes, second from right, bottom row
[15:15] Edward Pearse: Lion Rampant Guardant
[15:15] Darlingmonster Ember: ooo
[15:15] Edward Pearse: The Guardant means the face of the beast it towards the viewer
[15:15] Darlingmonster Ember: nods
[15:16] Edward Pearse: Ah
[15:16] Edward Pearse: Now
[15:16] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): ( thought he was just looking for a date)
[15:16] Edward Pearse: One of the biggest myths about heraldry is the existence of a "family" coat of arms
[15:17] Osric Worbridge: indeed
[15:17] Edward Pearse: No. Such. Thing.
[15:17] Linus Lacombe: Though certain genealogical concerns are quite apt to try to sell you one.
[15:17] Edward Pearse: A coat of arms is like a title, you have to wait for the previous owner to die before you can lay claim to it
[15:17] Osric Worbridge: ((Scam))
[15:18] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Although when one is a member of a clan, he is allowed to display his Chief's arms. Just like any retainer to a Lord.
[15:18] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Wait but are there not certain combinations that are linked to lands?
[15:18] Edward Pearse: Yes, there are businesses referred to as "bucket shops" who will sell you anything based on your surname
[15:18] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Land and names
[15:18] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Isnt that where the myth than comes from
[15:19] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): the Kent area has the infamouse Cinque Port arms. Look at Hastings and Dover.
[15:19] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Many families also re-use certain displays from father to son.
[15:19] Edward Pearse: IF, and it's a big if, the titles is entailed to the property, then yes arms goes with the land, but they're rather rare now days
[15:19] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): arms of English Kings, for existence. You should see the arms of William and Mary sometiem.
[15:20] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): sometime*
[15:20] Edward Pearse: And if we can keep the questions for the end, for now :-)
[15:22] Edward Pearse: No, since only one person at a time may hold an achievement of arms
[15:22] Edward Pearse: There comes into play a system called Cadency
[15:22] Edward Pearse: This means you overlay the original arms with a mark to show you're in line to inherit
[15:24] Edward Pearse: If you look across to my right, the bottom row shows the arms of the various sons of Queen Elizabeth II
[15:25] Edward Pearse: Charles on the far left, then Andrew, followed by William and Harry
[15:25] Edward Pearse: The diamond above them is Beatrice
[15:25] Edward Pearse: Since she's a girl she doesn't get a shield, she has a lozenge
[15:26] Ceejay Writer coughs
[15:26] Solace Fairlady: tastier
[15:26] Jimmy Branagh: Reeeeecola ...
[15:26] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): ...she can use a shield if she wants....its not required.
[15:26] Linus Lacombe: Cherry or menthol?
[15:26] Edward Pearse: When Elizabeth dies, the marks will then change with the succession
[15:27] Edward Pearse: Obviously, not everyone inherits the main arms
[15:28] Edward Pearse: Second and third sons usually add a change to show they are related but still have their own personal arms
[15:28] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Marks of Cadency arent marks of succession. THey're marks to show which son you are. Until you're granted your own arms...
[15:28] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): they dont change with death.
[15:28] Edward Pearse: We'll discuss that at the end if you like
[15:29] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Just helping :D
[15:29] Edward Pearse: Here's some examples of how arms may change with generations and marriages
[15:29] Rain (eochai): Thats when ay use Voodoo Zombies.
[15:30] Edward Pearse: Cadency is done a little differently in Scotland
[15:31] Edward Pearse: Usually noted with a border around the arms, rather than a label over it
[15:31] Addison Greymyst: Sorry to have to leave - thank you all - very informative - take care
[15:32] Edward Pearse: As you can see here the original coat of arms stays the same on the left as it passes from generation to generation
[15:32] Darlingmonster Ember: wow
[15:34] Edward Pearse: Now I think just about everyone on the planet heard about a small royal wedding last year
[15:34] Bookworm Hienrichs chuckles.
[15:34] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[15:35] Solace Fairlady: so the Royal heralds scurried to invent her a coat of arms?
[15:35] Edward Pearse: Test
[15:35] Osric WorbridgeOsric Worbridge nods
[15:35] Ceejay Writer: (quietly interjects that tips for our speaker and the venue can be paid to the Salon signs at the rear of the room, thank you!)
[15:35] Edward PearseEdward Pearse kicks lag
[15:36] Edward Pearse: And yes, the Middleton arms were done in a hurry
[15:36] Edward Pearse: Hers are the top left.
[15:36] Edward Pearse: The blue bow indicates an unmarried woman
[15:36] Solace Fairlady: pretty ribbon!
[15:36] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington): the one with the naff bow?
[15:36] Linus Lacombe: Well, isn't that a jaunty little arms she has
[15:36] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington): yup, one with the bow rofl
[15:37] Darlingmonster Ember: gorgeous
[15:37] Edward Pearse: Once she was married and became Duchess of Cambridge her arms changed to those in the middle
[15:37] Darlingmonster Ember: ah
[15:37] Edward Pearse: Half middleton, half Prince William
[15:37] Solace Fairlady: will her arms, with or without bow, be used again by anyone?
[15:37] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): England's
[15:37] Linus Lacombe: If families have no arms, why are those Middleton arms?
[15:38] Edward Pearse: William's, not Englands
[15:38] Linus Lacombe: oops, not holding questions til the end...sorry
[15:38] Solace Fairlady: sorry!
[15:38] Darlingmonster Ember notes the demerits down
[15:38] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[15:38] Solace Fairlady enjoys the detention afterwards far too much
[15:38] Edward Pearse: Now, some families will keep the quartering to show they have a really good pedigree when it comes to important people
[15:39] Stereo Nacht: o.O
[15:39] Osric Worbridge: Those always make me laugh.
[15:39] Edward Pearse: Some get a little carried away in my opinion
[15:39] Solace Fairlady: omg
[15:39] Darlingmonster Ember: ahem... this was before facebook icons, of course
[15:39] Linus Lacombe: Pretty quilt!
[15:39] Darlingmonster Ember: smirks
[15:39] Solace Fairlady: compensating, perhaps?
[15:39] Bookworm Hienrichs: Good gravy!
[15:40] Edward Pearse: Possible one of those with an important title but flat broke
[15:40] Ceejay Writer: I'm blind!
[15:40] Mumsy Abigail (mumsy): and three arms
[15:40] Darlingmonster Ember: laughs, broke from all the paperwork of that crest
[15:40] Solace Fairlady: 6 heralds ended up in an asylum compiling that
[15:40] Darlingmonster Ember: heee
[15:41] Solace Fairlady: they dropped that one
[15:41] Edward Pearse: These were the arms for the Emperor of Austria Hungry as of 1915
[15:42] Ceejay WriterCeejay Writer SO wants to tidy up that crooked cross.
[15:42] Bookworm HienrichsBookworm Hienrichs chuckles.
[15:42] Linus Lacombe: Crowns of Austria and Hungary I assume
[15:43] Osric Worbridge: a semi of estoiles
[15:44] Bookworm Hienrichs: D'oh!
[15:44] Bookworm Hienrichs: I was wondering...
[15:44] Solace Fairlady: heavy armour
[15:44] Ceejay Writer: He had managed a good long stretch without crashes.
[15:45] Solace Fairlady: yes indeed!
[15:45] Solace Fairlady: topping the leaderboard
[15:45] Darlingmonster Ember quickly puts back the widget in the sim chassis before anyone suspects
[15:45] Solace Fairlady: welcome back your Grace!
[15:46] Solace Fairlady: ah phoenix double
[15:46] Bookworm Hienrichs: Spoke too soon.
[15:46] Darlingmonster Ember: aha, I see I'm not the only one with teh double crash on new viewers
[15:46] Osric Worbridge: perhaps a Doppelgänger
[15:47] Satu Moreau: Sorry, but I have to go
[15:47] Satu Moreau: Take care all! And thanks, Mr. Pearse!
[15:47] Darlingmonster Ember: waves to M Moreau
[15:47] Solace Fairlady: safe travels satu!
[15:47] Satu Moreau: Hope to see it up on the notning
[15:47] Jimmy Branagh: Byee Satu!
[15:47] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Everyday at least once a day I crash
[15:47] Edward PearseEdward Pearse holds his breath
[15:48] Edward Pearse: OK, and these arms are for the university of Plymouth, granted as recently as 2008
[15:48] Ceejay Writer holds the dukes breath in a sturdy test tube.
[15:48] Solace Fairlady: for analysis later?
[15:48] Edward Pearse: And I'm going to skip over the Battle of Barnet story since we started so late
[15:49] Edward Pearse: Ceejay, would you like to issue numbers for the questioners? :-)
[15:50] Ceejay Writer: Ummmmmmm okay!
[15:50] Ceejay Writer: Those with questions, please state your name to me.
[15:50] Edward Pearse: Since hand won't work :-)
[15:51] Ceejay Writer: I have one in the queue. Queue going once, going twice....
[15:51] Linus Lacombe: I fear I must say good night...my supper is goig to be out of the oven in just acouple of minutes. Thank you for a fascinating talk, Mr Pearse
[15:51] Edward Pearse: Ask away then
[15:51] Darlingmonster Ember: travel safe M Lacombe
[15:51] Ceejay Writer: Also, another reminder tht tips may be paid to the posters at the rear of the venue, t hank you!
[15:51] Edward Pearse: Travel safe
[15:52] Ceejay Writer: Right then - Ethan Paul, your question?
[15:52] Linus LacombeLinus Lacombe waves and vanishes
[15:52] Jimmy Branagh: Noight Mr. Linus!
[15:52] Solace Fairlady: be well Linus, enjoy your supper;0
[15:52] Osric Worbridge: http://www.barnet.gov.uk/index/leisure-culture/libraries/archives/archives-histories/archives-barnethistories/archives-barnet-battleofbarnet.htm
[15:52] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): When two power countries lets say england and spain arange to have two equal rulers marry how is the coat of arms decided for the heir ?
[15:53] Darlingmonster Ember: oooo great question
[15:53] Solace Fairlady: round the back, last one standing wins?
[15:53] Darlingmonster Ember: arms wrestling... best two outta three
[15:53] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): hehe
[15:53] Edward Pearse: Usually, the arms would be divided on the shield like Kate Middleton's
[15:54] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Would that then blend into a new country
[15:54] Edward Pearse: The male on the dexter (left as you face the shield) side
[15:54] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Dimidated.
[15:54] Edward Pearse: Well when Richard I was King of England, he didn't really care about it much
[15:55] Edward Pearse: He was more interested in his lands in Normandy and Aquitain
[15:55] Edward Pearse: But "King" is a good title
[15:55] Edward Pearse: And England gave him gold to bugger off on crusade
[15:55] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): When people marry, thier arms can be dimidated. They do not create a new country, because the right of Kingship falls to the male. Wimminz cant be king. Unless your name is Elizabeth.
[15:55] Osric Worbridge: Queen Mary of England remained Sovereign while married to King Phillip of Spain.
[15:56] Edward Pearse: When James the VI of Scotland inherited the throne of England his personal arms were revised to show the two Kingdoms
[15:56] Edward Pearse: But the two remained separate countries
[15:57] Edward Pearse: And did for another 200 years
[15:57] Jimmy Branagh: Oy've got to run! Thenks Duke Edward faw a gryte Salon! Noight all!
[15:57] Darlingmonster Ember applauds
[15:57] Arnold (gager): Night.
[15:57] Stereo Nacht: Good night Mr. Branagh!
[15:57] Darlingmonster Ember: splendid stuff
[15:57] Solace Fairlady: Goodnight master Jimmy!
[15:57] Solace Fairlady applauds
[15:57] Jimmy Branagh applauds and waves
[15:57] Ceejay Writer: goodnight Jimmy!
[15:57] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): fantastic!
[15:57] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): The marriage between Mary and Phillip was decided upon by rule of Parliament.
[15:57] Edward Pearse: Night Jimmy
[15:58] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): they only agreed to it if England didn't become Spain's pet
[15:58] Solace Fairlady: Thank you Sir Edward for a fascinating talk, very inmspiring to furter personal research!
[15:58] Darlingmonster Ember: keen
[15:58] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): lol
[15:58] Edward Pearse: Couple of linkies for people
[15:58] Darlingmonster Ember: gets out pen
[15:59] Edward Pearse: So, yes the current arms for Elizabeth show the Royal Arms of England in the two corners and the arms of Scotland and Ireland in the other two
[15:59] Edward Pearse: Wales doesn't get a look in :-)
[15:59] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Unless shes in Scotland, and then they are switched
[15:59] Solace Fairlady: bot of course:)
[15:59] Edward Pearse: Yep
[15:59] Edward Pearse: The Use and Abuse of the Coat of Arms and Crest
By William Armstrong Crozier (published 1905)
http://www.genealogymagazine.com/heuseandabof.html
[15:59] Darlingmonster Ember: oh?
[15:59] Edward Pearse: http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Faq.htm
[16:00] Edward Pearse: Pssst! Want to Buy Your Family's Coat of Arms?
http://learn.ancestry.com/LearnMore/Article.aspx?id=4133
[16:00] Ceejay Writer looks at her watch and meeps, and must be elsewhere in one minute precisely. "Edward, this was fascinating, I honestly had no clue of the intriciaties!"
[16:00] Stereo Nacht: Good night Miss Writer!
[16:00] Edward Pearse grins, "and this is the basics"
[16:00] Ceejay Writer: Adn again, everyone, please support Salon! The posters at the rear of the venue await your generous assistance.
[16:00] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): We could go beyond, into the simple rules of tincture...
[16:00] Mumsy Abigail (mumsy)Mumsy Abigail applauds
[16:01] Ceejay Writer: Good evening, one and all!
[16:01] Edward Pearse: Take care
[16:01] Darlingmonster Ember: /me applauds
[16:01] Darlingmonster Ember: /me applauds
[16:01] Solace Fairlady: Thank you so much your Grace, and done with sio many trials to get through as well!
[16:01] Bookworm Hienrichs: Any other questions for Edward?
[16:02] Edward Pearse: Speak now or forever hold your peace
[16:02] Osric Worbridge: Which of the 2 signs is for his Grace?
[16:02] Bookworm Hienrichs: Either.
[16:02] Darlingmonster Ember: waves to all
[16:02] Darlingmonster Ember: flits
[16:02] Bookworm Hienrichs: Well, thank you, those who are left, for coming.
[16:02] Stereo Nacht: Good night Miss Ember!
[16:02] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me chuckles.
[16:03] Bookworm Hienrichs: We shall do our best to iron out the rough spots for next month's Salon!
[16:03] Solace Fairlady: Goodnight all, and thank you again for the salon, Miss Book and Miss Sera!
[16:03] Stereo Nacht: Good night Miss Solace!
[16:03] Stereo Nacht: And good night everyone!
[16:03] Edward Pearse: Thanks for coming everyone and thanks for your patience :-)
[16:03] Stereo Nacht: Thank you Sir Edward, it was quite instructive!
[16:03] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington): g'night folks!
[16:03] Arnold (gager): And nw that eveyon'esleft I have thecrash threats.
[16:04] Edward Pearse: Must have been your turn
[16:05] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me sighs. "That could have gone better."
[16:05] Edward Pearse: Ah well
[16:05] Osric Worbridge: Glad to see you were able to make it to the event Miss Book.
[16:06] Edward Pearse: At least my music didn't crash :-)
[16:06] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me chuckles.
[16:06] Bookworm Hienrichs: And glad to see you, Mr. Worbridge.
[16:06] Edward Pearse: Well, I'll leave you to it. Travel safe everyone
[16:07] Bookworm Hienrichs: Good day, sir.
[16:07] Osric Worbridge: Good day
[16:07] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me flits away herself.
[16:07] Osric Worbridge: Time to go build
[14:41] Edward Pearse: Heraldry is the profession, study, or art of creating, granting, and blazoning arms and ruling on questions of rank or protocol, as exercised by an officer of arms.
[14:41] Edward Pearse: I am neither a professional Herald nor an expert
[14:41] Edward Pearse: Just a very enthusiastic amateur :-)
[14:41] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[14:41] Darlingmonster Ember: we like those
[14:42] Solace Fairlady: they come cheaper than the other two as well
[14:42] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[14:42] Darlingmonster Ember: grins
[14:42] Edward Pearse: There are a variety of differences between heraldry in different countryies
[14:42] Edward Pearse: Most of what I will be discussing here concerns English heraldry as that is what I'm most familiar with
[14:43] Edward Pearse: The use of symbols to identify kings goes back as far as ancient Egypt.
[14:43] Edward Pearse: The tribes of Isreal are each supposed to have a standard and the Legions of the Roman Army were identifyable by the symbols on their shields.
[14:44] Edward Pearse: Origins as identification for individuals came to the fore in the 12th century.
[14:45] Edward Pearse pauses as he waits for the texture upload to get to the right texture
[14:47] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): (I still see grey)
[14:47] Edward Pearse: OK, should load now
[14:47] Darlingmonster Ember: ((is sstarting... got one texture on grid))
[14:47] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): (mana from the Heavens!)
[14:47] Edward Pearse: Geoffrey V (1113 - 1151), Count of Anjou has the first recorded use of a coat of arms.
[14:47] Solace Fairlady: i see the current royal coat of arms?
[14:47] Tepic Harlequin: oh! a picture of a bloke with a sword!
[14:48] Jimmy Branagh: ((One on grid, one near Edward))
[14:48] Edward Pearse: His shield of blue with gold lions was part of his memorial enamel.
[14:48] Osric Worbridge: ((Giants vs. Packers 10 to 10))
[14:48] Bookworm Hienrichs: ((Yes, look up front, not on the big thing ont he side.))
[14:48] Solace Fairlady: seeing both
[14:48] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): i seee...what is that, willaims?
[14:48] Edward Pearse: England's Henry II is believed to have used a pair of gold lions as his personal arms, although the colours are unknown.
[14:49] Edward Pearse: His fHis son Richard, added a third lion and this symbol of three lions has continued to be the Royal Arms of England to this day.
[14:49] Sera (serafina.puchkina): interesting!
[14:49] Tepic HarlequinTepic Harlequin imagines King Henry with lions as arms....
[14:51] Osric Worbridge: Tinctures, and metals, and furs! Oh My!
[14:51] Solace Fairlady: sounds like a usual night out
[14:53] Osric Worbridge: ((The text is lost in the back ground. Perhaps a prim places behind it for contrast, your Grace?))
[14:53] Edward Pearse: Bah and that's loaded transparent
[14:54] Edward Pearse: OK
[14:54] Edward Pearse: The Language of heraldry is Norman French
[14:54] Edward Pearse: Just as English has words in it derived from Latin, so too does French
[14:55] Edward Pearse: (and German and most European languages for that matter)
[14:55] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): German isnt a romantic language....
[14:55] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Neither is English.
[14:55] Edward Pearse: A Blazon, is a word "map" to describe a coat of arms
[14:55] Tepic Harlequin: no, but English has German roots as well as roots from the others,...
[14:56] Darlingmonster Ember: listens
[14:56] Edward Pearse: The colours are called "Tinctures"
[14:56] Edward Pearse: And are made up of two metals
[14:56] Edward Pearse: Five colurs
[14:57] Edward Pearse: and two furs
[14:57] Edward Pearse: Tinctures: Metals of Or (gold) and Argent (silver/white). Colours Azure (blue), Gules (red), Purpure (purple), Sable (black), Vert (green).
[14:57] Edward Pearse: Later heraldry incorporates three additional colours
[14:58] Edward Pearse: Additionally later colours include Tenné (brown), Murrey (wine), Sanguine (blood red)
[14:59] Edward Pearse: The cross hatching on the right side is how the colours are depicted when you only have the option of black & white drawings to display
[14:59] Darlingmonster Ember: nods, pen and ink
[14:59] Darlingmonster Ember: nice
[15:00] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Petra Sancta method.
[15:01] Edward Pearse: The shield can be divided into several sections
[15:02] Edward Pearse: Over these can be laid various lines, called "ordinaries"
[15:03] Bookworm Hienrichs feels her eyes glaze over at the complexity.
[15:03] Edward Pearse: Some of you may have heard the rumour that a "bar sinister" denotes royal illigitinacy
[15:03] Linus Lacombe: Simon Bar Sinister?
[15:03] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): >.> This is nothin' babes...
[15:03] Edward Pearse: This means you have been reading too many romance novels
[15:03] Osric Worbridge: lol
[15:03] Darlingmonster Ember: laughs
[15:03] Darlingmonster Ember: guilty
[15:04] Edward Pearse: A "fess" is a french word for Bar (or barre)
[15:04] Edward Pearse: As you can see on the chart it's horizontal
[15:04] Edward Pearse: It's possible to have a "bend sinister" but a bar sinister doesn't even exist
[15:05] Edward Pearse: Rather than just a straight line, the divisions can also be separated by patterns
[15:07] Edward Pearse: But there's only so many ways that you can use a line to help break up the shield image
[15:07] Edward Pearse: So people also used "Charges"
[15:08] Edward Pearse: Charges are animals, objects and people on the shield
[15:09] Wildstar: this is terrific but my time's up and regretfully I must go .... good night all
[15:09] Edward Pearse: Lions are pretty popular in Scottish and English heraldry
[15:09] Linus Lacombe: Good night
[15:09] Darlingmonster Ember: waves, safe travels
[15:09] Solace Fairlady: god night dmiral!
[15:09] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): All them royal folks runnin around, and all...
[15:10] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Not the mention the Royal Tressure...
[15:10] Darlingmonster Ember: mmm quite a pride
[15:10] Osric Worbridge: ouch .. pun
[15:11] Edward Pearse: OK, any of these still grey over here?
[15:11] Linus Lacombe: nope, I can see them all
[15:11] Tepic Harlequin: darn..... i have ter go, an it's very interesting too!
[15:11] Sera (serafina.puchkina): I can see them
[15:11] Osric Worbridge: 2 on top
[15:11] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Theres one or two near the top
[15:11] Darlingmonster Ember: top right, top left
[15:11] Solace Fairlady: 2 on top
[15:11] Darlingmonster Ember: coming in on right
[15:11] Linus Lacombe: oh yes, two on top not rezzin
[15:11] Rain (eochai): Nini, Tepic :)
[15:12] Arnold (gager): Night.
[15:12] Tepic Harlequin: night all!
[15:12] Solace Fairlady: top right trying to rez in
[15:12] Darlingmonster Ember: coming in on left
[15:12] Linus Lacombe: here they come in
[15:12] Darlingmonster Ember: grand
[15:12] Solace Fairlady: there they are
[15:12] Osric Worbridge: 3 lions rampant, can see them
[15:13] Edward Pearse: Now, the top three are all "Lion Rampant"
[15:13] Edward Pearse: Just to give you an idea of the artistic differences that still happen with an identical charge
[15:14] Edward Pearse: "Rampant" is three legs raised in the air
[15:14] Sera (serafina.puchkina): I didn't know that
[15:14] Edward Pearse: Each of the positions of the lions has a different word to describe it
[15:14] Edward Pearse: Sejent, passant, Statant
[15:14] Linus Lacombe: What's the one saucily stick out his tongue called?
[15:15] Edward Pearse: Facing the front?
[15:15] Linus Lacombe: Yes, second from right, bottom row
[15:15] Edward Pearse: Lion Rampant Guardant
[15:15] Darlingmonster Ember: ooo
[15:15] Edward Pearse: The Guardant means the face of the beast it towards the viewer
[15:15] Darlingmonster Ember: nods
[15:16] Edward Pearse: Ah
[15:16] Edward Pearse: Now
[15:16] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): ( thought he was just looking for a date)
[15:16] Edward Pearse: One of the biggest myths about heraldry is the existence of a "family" coat of arms
[15:17] Osric Worbridge: indeed
[15:17] Edward Pearse: No. Such. Thing.
[15:17] Linus Lacombe: Though certain genealogical concerns are quite apt to try to sell you one.
[15:17] Edward Pearse: A coat of arms is like a title, you have to wait for the previous owner to die before you can lay claim to it
[15:17] Osric Worbridge: ((Scam))
[15:18] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Although when one is a member of a clan, he is allowed to display his Chief's arms. Just like any retainer to a Lord.
[15:18] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Wait but are there not certain combinations that are linked to lands?
[15:18] Edward Pearse: Yes, there are businesses referred to as "bucket shops" who will sell you anything based on your surname
[15:18] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Land and names
[15:18] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Isnt that where the myth than comes from
[15:19] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): the Kent area has the infamouse Cinque Port arms. Look at Hastings and Dover.
[15:19] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Many families also re-use certain displays from father to son.
[15:19] Edward Pearse: IF, and it's a big if, the titles is entailed to the property, then yes arms goes with the land, but they're rather rare now days
[15:19] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): arms of English Kings, for existence. You should see the arms of William and Mary sometiem.
[15:20] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): sometime*
[15:20] Edward Pearse: And if we can keep the questions for the end, for now :-)
[15:22] Edward Pearse: No, since only one person at a time may hold an achievement of arms
[15:22] Edward Pearse: There comes into play a system called Cadency
[15:22] Edward Pearse: This means you overlay the original arms with a mark to show you're in line to inherit
[15:24] Edward Pearse: If you look across to my right, the bottom row shows the arms of the various sons of Queen Elizabeth II
[15:25] Edward Pearse: Charles on the far left, then Andrew, followed by William and Harry
[15:25] Edward Pearse: The diamond above them is Beatrice
[15:25] Edward Pearse: Since she's a girl she doesn't get a shield, she has a lozenge
[15:26] Ceejay Writer coughs
[15:26] Solace Fairlady: tastier
[15:26] Jimmy Branagh: Reeeeecola ...
[15:26] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): ...she can use a shield if she wants....its not required.
[15:26] Linus Lacombe: Cherry or menthol?
[15:26] Edward Pearse: When Elizabeth dies, the marks will then change with the succession
[15:27] Edward Pearse: Obviously, not everyone inherits the main arms
[15:28] Edward Pearse: Second and third sons usually add a change to show they are related but still have their own personal arms
[15:28] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Marks of Cadency arent marks of succession. THey're marks to show which son you are. Until you're granted your own arms...
[15:28] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): they dont change with death.
[15:28] Edward Pearse: We'll discuss that at the end if you like
[15:29] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Just helping :D
[15:29] Edward Pearse: Here's some examples of how arms may change with generations and marriages
[15:29] Rain (eochai): Thats when ay use Voodoo Zombies.
[15:30] Edward Pearse: Cadency is done a little differently in Scotland
[15:31] Edward Pearse: Usually noted with a border around the arms, rather than a label over it
[15:31] Addison Greymyst: Sorry to have to leave - thank you all - very informative - take care
[15:32] Edward Pearse: As you can see here the original coat of arms stays the same on the left as it passes from generation to generation
[15:32] Darlingmonster Ember: wow
[15:34] Edward Pearse: Now I think just about everyone on the planet heard about a small royal wedding last year
[15:34] Bookworm Hienrichs chuckles.
[15:34] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[15:35] Solace Fairlady: so the Royal heralds scurried to invent her a coat of arms?
[15:35] Edward Pearse: Test
[15:35] Osric WorbridgeOsric Worbridge nods
[15:35] Ceejay Writer: (quietly interjects that tips for our speaker and the venue can be paid to the Salon signs at the rear of the room, thank you!)
[15:35] Edward PearseEdward Pearse kicks lag
[15:36] Edward Pearse: And yes, the Middleton arms were done in a hurry
[15:36] Edward Pearse: Hers are the top left.
[15:36] Edward Pearse: The blue bow indicates an unmarried woman
[15:36] Solace Fairlady: pretty ribbon!
[15:36] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington): the one with the naff bow?
[15:36] Linus Lacombe: Well, isn't that a jaunty little arms she has
[15:36] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington): yup, one with the bow rofl
[15:37] Darlingmonster Ember: gorgeous
[15:37] Edward Pearse: Once she was married and became Duchess of Cambridge her arms changed to those in the middle
[15:37] Darlingmonster Ember: ah
[15:37] Edward Pearse: Half middleton, half Prince William
[15:37] Solace Fairlady: will her arms, with or without bow, be used again by anyone?
[15:37] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): England's
[15:37] Linus Lacombe: If families have no arms, why are those Middleton arms?
[15:38] Edward Pearse: William's, not Englands
[15:38] Linus Lacombe: oops, not holding questions til the end...sorry
[15:38] Solace Fairlady: sorry!
[15:38] Darlingmonster Ember notes the demerits down
[15:38] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[15:38] Solace Fairlady enjoys the detention afterwards far too much
[15:38] Edward Pearse: Now, some families will keep the quartering to show they have a really good pedigree when it comes to important people
[15:39] Stereo Nacht: o.O
[15:39] Osric Worbridge: Those always make me laugh.
[15:39] Edward Pearse: Some get a little carried away in my opinion
[15:39] Solace Fairlady: omg
[15:39] Darlingmonster Ember: ahem... this was before facebook icons, of course
[15:39] Linus Lacombe: Pretty quilt!
[15:39] Darlingmonster Ember: smirks
[15:39] Solace Fairlady: compensating, perhaps?
[15:39] Bookworm Hienrichs: Good gravy!
[15:40] Edward Pearse: Possible one of those with an important title but flat broke
[15:40] Ceejay Writer: I'm blind!
[15:40] Mumsy Abigail (mumsy): and three arms
[15:40] Darlingmonster Ember: laughs, broke from all the paperwork of that crest
[15:40] Solace Fairlady: 6 heralds ended up in an asylum compiling that
[15:40] Darlingmonster Ember: heee
[15:41] Solace Fairlady: they dropped that one
[15:41] Edward Pearse: These were the arms for the Emperor of Austria Hungry as of 1915
[15:42] Ceejay WriterCeejay Writer SO wants to tidy up that crooked cross.
[15:42] Bookworm HienrichsBookworm Hienrichs chuckles.
[15:42] Linus Lacombe: Crowns of Austria and Hungary I assume
[15:43] Osric Worbridge: a semi of estoiles
[15:44] Bookworm Hienrichs: D'oh!
[15:44] Bookworm Hienrichs: I was wondering...
[15:44] Solace Fairlady: heavy armour
[15:44] Ceejay Writer: He had managed a good long stretch without crashes.
[15:45] Solace Fairlady: yes indeed!
[15:45] Solace Fairlady: topping the leaderboard
[15:45] Darlingmonster Ember quickly puts back the widget in the sim chassis before anyone suspects
[15:45] Solace Fairlady: welcome back your Grace!
[15:46] Solace Fairlady: ah phoenix double
[15:46] Bookworm Hienrichs: Spoke too soon.
[15:46] Darlingmonster Ember: aha, I see I'm not the only one with teh double crash on new viewers
[15:46] Osric Worbridge: perhaps a Doppelgänger
[15:47] Satu Moreau: Sorry, but I have to go
[15:47] Satu Moreau: Take care all! And thanks, Mr. Pearse!
[15:47] Darlingmonster Ember: waves to M Moreau
[15:47] Solace Fairlady: safe travels satu!
[15:47] Satu Moreau: Hope to see it up on the notning
[15:47] Jimmy Branagh: Byee Satu!
[15:47] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Everyday at least once a day I crash
[15:47] Edward PearseEdward Pearse holds his breath
[15:48] Edward Pearse: OK, and these arms are for the university of Plymouth, granted as recently as 2008
[15:48] Ceejay Writer holds the dukes breath in a sturdy test tube.
[15:48] Solace Fairlady: for analysis later?
[15:48] Edward Pearse: And I'm going to skip over the Battle of Barnet story since we started so late
[15:49] Edward Pearse: Ceejay, would you like to issue numbers for the questioners? :-)
[15:50] Ceejay Writer: Ummmmmmm okay!
[15:50] Ceejay Writer: Those with questions, please state your name to me.
[15:50] Edward Pearse: Since hand won't work :-)
[15:51] Ceejay Writer: I have one in the queue. Queue going once, going twice....
[15:51] Linus Lacombe: I fear I must say good night...my supper is goig to be out of the oven in just acouple of minutes. Thank you for a fascinating talk, Mr Pearse
[15:51] Edward Pearse: Ask away then
[15:51] Darlingmonster Ember: travel safe M Lacombe
[15:51] Ceejay Writer: Also, another reminder tht tips may be paid to the posters at the rear of the venue, t hank you!
[15:51] Edward Pearse: Travel safe
[15:52] Ceejay Writer: Right then - Ethan Paul, your question?
[15:52] Linus LacombeLinus Lacombe waves and vanishes
[15:52] Jimmy Branagh: Noight Mr. Linus!
[15:52] Solace Fairlady: be well Linus, enjoy your supper;0
[15:52] Osric Worbridge: http://www.barnet.gov.uk/index/leisure-culture/libraries/archives/archives-histories/archives-barnethistories/archives-barnet-battleofbarnet.htm
[15:52] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): When two power countries lets say england and spain arange to have two equal rulers marry how is the coat of arms decided for the heir ?
[15:53] Darlingmonster Ember: oooo great question
[15:53] Solace Fairlady: round the back, last one standing wins?
[15:53] Darlingmonster Ember: arms wrestling... best two outta three
[15:53] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): hehe
[15:53] Edward Pearse: Usually, the arms would be divided on the shield like Kate Middleton's
[15:54] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Would that then blend into a new country
[15:54] Edward Pearse: The male on the dexter (left as you face the shield) side
[15:54] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Dimidated.
[15:54] Edward Pearse: Well when Richard I was King of England, he didn't really care about it much
[15:55] Edward Pearse: He was more interested in his lands in Normandy and Aquitain
[15:55] Edward Pearse: But "King" is a good title
[15:55] Edward Pearse: And England gave him gold to bugger off on crusade
[15:55] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): When people marry, thier arms can be dimidated. They do not create a new country, because the right of Kingship falls to the male. Wimminz cant be king. Unless your name is Elizabeth.
[15:55] Osric Worbridge: Queen Mary of England remained Sovereign while married to King Phillip of Spain.
[15:56] Edward Pearse: When James the VI of Scotland inherited the throne of England his personal arms were revised to show the two Kingdoms
[15:56] Edward Pearse: But the two remained separate countries
[15:57] Edward Pearse: And did for another 200 years
[15:57] Jimmy Branagh: Oy've got to run! Thenks Duke Edward faw a gryte Salon! Noight all!
[15:57] Darlingmonster Ember applauds
[15:57] Arnold (gager): Night.
[15:57] Stereo Nacht: Good night Mr. Branagh!
[15:57] Darlingmonster Ember: splendid stuff
[15:57] Solace Fairlady: Goodnight master Jimmy!
[15:57] Solace Fairlady applauds
[15:57] Jimmy Branagh applauds and waves
[15:57] Ceejay Writer: goodnight Jimmy!
[15:57] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): fantastic!
[15:57] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): The marriage between Mary and Phillip was decided upon by rule of Parliament.
[15:57] Edward Pearse: Night Jimmy
[15:58] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): they only agreed to it if England didn't become Spain's pet
[15:58] Solace Fairlady: Thank you Sir Edward for a fascinating talk, very inmspiring to furter personal research!
[15:58] Darlingmonster Ember: keen
[15:58] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): lol
[15:58] Edward Pearse: Couple of linkies for people
[15:58] Darlingmonster Ember: gets out pen
[15:59] Edward Pearse: So, yes the current arms for Elizabeth show the Royal Arms of England in the two corners and the arms of Scotland and Ireland in the other two
[15:59] Edward Pearse: Wales doesn't get a look in :-)
[15:59] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Unless shes in Scotland, and then they are switched
[15:59] Solace Fairlady: bot of course:)
[15:59] Edward Pearse: Yep
[15:59] Edward Pearse: The Use and Abuse of the Coat of Arms and Crest
By William Armstrong Crozier (published 1905)
http://www.genealogymagazine.com/heuseandabof.html
[15:59] Darlingmonster Ember: oh?
[15:59] Edward Pearse: http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Faq.htm
[16:00] Edward Pearse: Pssst! Want to Buy Your Family's Coat of Arms?
http://learn.ancestry.com/LearnMore/Article.aspx?id=4133
[16:00] Ceejay Writer looks at her watch and meeps, and must be elsewhere in one minute precisely. "Edward, this was fascinating, I honestly had no clue of the intriciaties!"
[16:00] Stereo Nacht: Good night Miss Writer!
[16:00] Edward Pearse grins, "and this is the basics"
[16:00] Ceejay Writer: Adn again, everyone, please support Salon! The posters at the rear of the venue await your generous assistance.
[16:00] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): We could go beyond, into the simple rules of tincture...
[16:00] Mumsy Abigail (mumsy)Mumsy Abigail applauds
[16:01] Ceejay Writer: Good evening, one and all!
[16:01] Edward Pearse: Take care
[16:01] Darlingmonster Ember: /me applauds
[16:01] Darlingmonster Ember: /me applauds
[16:01] Solace Fairlady: Thank you so much your Grace, and done with sio many trials to get through as well!
[16:01] Bookworm Hienrichs: Any other questions for Edward?
[16:02] Edward Pearse: Speak now or forever hold your peace
[16:02] Osric Worbridge: Which of the 2 signs is for his Grace?
[16:02] Bookworm Hienrichs: Either.
[16:02] Darlingmonster Ember: waves to all
[16:02] Darlingmonster Ember: flits
[16:02] Bookworm Hienrichs: Well, thank you, those who are left, for coming.
[16:02] Stereo Nacht: Good night Miss Ember!
[16:02] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me chuckles.
[16:03] Bookworm Hienrichs: We shall do our best to iron out the rough spots for next month's Salon!
[16:03] Solace Fairlady: Goodnight all, and thank you again for the salon, Miss Book and Miss Sera!
[16:03] Stereo Nacht: Good night Miss Solace!
[16:03] Stereo Nacht: And good night everyone!
[16:03] Edward Pearse: Thanks for coming everyone and thanks for your patience :-)
[16:03] Stereo Nacht: Thank you Sir Edward, it was quite instructive!
[16:03] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington): g'night folks!
[16:03] Arnold (gager): And nw that eveyon'esleft I have thecrash threats.
[16:04] Edward Pearse: Must have been your turn
[16:05] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me sighs. "That could have gone better."
[16:05] Edward Pearse: Ah well
[16:05] Osric Worbridge: Glad to see you were able to make it to the event Miss Book.
[16:06] Edward Pearse: At least my music didn't crash :-)
[16:06] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me chuckles.
[16:06] Bookworm Hienrichs: And glad to see you, Mr. Worbridge.
[16:06] Edward Pearse: Well, I'll leave you to it. Travel safe everyone
[16:07] Bookworm Hienrichs: Good day, sir.
[16:07] Osric Worbridge: Good day
[16:07] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me flits away herself.
[16:07] Osric Worbridge: Time to go build
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