((Technical difficulties made for a late start.))
[14:41] Edward Pearse: Heraldry is the profession, study, or art of creating, granting, and blazoning arms and ruling on questions of rank or protocol, as exercised by an officer of arms.
[14:41] Edward Pearse: I am neither a professional Herald nor an expert
[14:41] Edward Pearse: Just a very enthusiastic amateur :-)
[14:41] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[14:41] Darlingmonster Ember: we like those
[14:42] Solace Fairlady: they come cheaper than the other two as well
[14:42] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[14:42] Darlingmonster Ember: grins
[14:42] Edward Pearse: There are a variety of differences between heraldry in different countryies
[14:42] Edward Pearse: Most of what I will be discussing here concerns English heraldry as that is what I'm most familiar with
[14:43] Edward Pearse: The use of symbols to identify kings goes back as far as ancient Egypt.
[14:43] Edward Pearse: The tribes of Isreal are each supposed to have a standard and the Legions of the Roman Army were identifyable by the symbols on their shields.
[14:44] Edward Pearse: Origins as identification for individuals came to the fore in the 12th century.
[14:45] Edward Pearse pauses as he waits for the texture upload to get to the right texture
[14:47] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): (I still see grey)
[14:47] Edward Pearse: OK, should load now
[14:47] Darlingmonster Ember: ((is sstarting... got one texture on grid))
[14:47] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): (mana from the Heavens!)
[14:47] Edward Pearse: Geoffrey V (1113 - 1151), Count of Anjou has the first recorded use of a coat of arms.
[14:47] Solace Fairlady: i see the current royal coat of arms?
[14:47] Tepic Harlequin: oh! a picture of a bloke with a sword!
[14:48] Jimmy Branagh: ((One on grid, one near Edward))
[14:48] Edward Pearse: His shield of blue with gold lions was part of his memorial enamel.
[14:48] Osric Worbridge: ((Giants vs. Packers 10 to 10))
[14:48] Bookworm Hienrichs: ((Yes, look up front, not on the big thing ont he side.))
[14:48] Solace Fairlady: seeing both
[14:48] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): i seee...what is that, willaims?
[14:48] Edward Pearse: England's Henry II is believed to have used a pair of gold lions as his personal arms, although the colours are unknown.
[14:49] Edward Pearse: His fHis son Richard, added a third lion and this symbol of three lions has continued to be the Royal Arms of England to this day.
[14:49] Sera (serafina.puchkina): interesting!
[14:49] Tepic HarlequinTepic Harlequin imagines King Henry with lions as arms....
[14:51] Osric Worbridge: Tinctures, and metals, and furs! Oh My!
[14:51] Solace Fairlady: sounds like a usual night out
[14:53] Osric Worbridge: ((The text is lost in the back ground. Perhaps a prim places behind it for contrast, your Grace?))
[14:53] Edward Pearse: Bah and that's loaded transparent
[14:54] Edward Pearse: OK
[14:54] Edward Pearse: The Language of heraldry is Norman French
[14:54] Edward Pearse: Just as English has words in it derived from Latin, so too does French
[14:55] Edward Pearse: (and German and most European languages for that matter)
[14:55] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): German isnt a romantic language....
[14:55] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Neither is English.
[14:55] Edward Pearse: A Blazon, is a word "map" to describe a coat of arms
[14:55] Tepic Harlequin: no, but English has German roots as well as roots from the others,...
[14:56] Darlingmonster Ember: listens
[14:56] Edward Pearse: The colours are called "Tinctures"
[14:56] Edward Pearse: And are made up of two metals
[14:56] Edward Pearse: Five colurs
[14:57] Edward Pearse: and two furs
[14:57] Edward Pearse: Tinctures: Metals of Or (gold) and Argent (silver/white). Colours Azure (blue), Gules (red), Purpure (purple), Sable (black), Vert (green).
[14:57] Edward Pearse: Later heraldry incorporates three additional colours
[14:58] Edward Pearse: Additionally later colours include Tenné (brown), Murrey (wine), Sanguine (blood red)
[14:59] Edward Pearse: The cross hatching on the right side is how the colours are depicted when you only have the option of black & white drawings to display
[14:59] Darlingmonster Ember: nods, pen and ink
[14:59] Darlingmonster Ember: nice
[15:00] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Petra Sancta method.
[15:01] Edward Pearse: The shield can be divided into several sections
[15:02] Edward Pearse: Over these can be laid various lines, called "ordinaries"
[15:03] Bookworm Hienrichs feels her eyes glaze over at the complexity.
[15:03] Edward Pearse: Some of you may have heard the rumour that a "bar sinister" denotes royal illigitinacy
[15:03] Linus Lacombe: Simon Bar Sinister?
[15:03] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): >.> This is nothin' babes...
[15:03] Edward Pearse: This means you have been reading too many romance novels
[15:03] Osric Worbridge: lol
[15:03] Darlingmonster Ember: laughs
[15:03] Darlingmonster Ember: guilty
[15:04] Edward Pearse: A "fess" is a french word for Bar (or barre)
[15:04] Edward Pearse: As you can see on the chart it's horizontal
[15:04] Edward Pearse: It's possible to have a "bend sinister" but a bar sinister doesn't even exist
[15:05] Edward Pearse: Rather than just a straight line, the divisions can also be separated by patterns
[15:07] Edward Pearse: But there's only so many ways that you can use a line to help break up the shield image
[15:07] Edward Pearse: So people also used "Charges"
[15:08] Edward Pearse: Charges are animals, objects and people on the shield
[15:09] Wildstar: this is terrific but my time's up and regretfully I must go .... good night all
[15:09] Edward Pearse: Lions are pretty popular in Scottish and English heraldry
[15:09] Linus Lacombe: Good night
[15:09] Darlingmonster Ember: waves, safe travels
[15:09] Solace Fairlady: god night dmiral!
[15:09] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): All them royal folks runnin around, and all...
[15:10] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Not the mention the Royal Tressure...
[15:10] Darlingmonster Ember: mmm quite a pride
[15:10] Osric Worbridge: ouch .. pun
[15:11] Edward Pearse: OK, any of these still grey over here?
[15:11] Linus Lacombe: nope, I can see them all
[15:11] Tepic Harlequin: darn..... i have ter go, an it's very interesting too!
[15:11] Sera (serafina.puchkina): I can see them
[15:11] Osric Worbridge: 2 on top
[15:11] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Theres one or two near the top
[15:11] Darlingmonster Ember: top right, top left
[15:11] Solace Fairlady: 2 on top
[15:11] Darlingmonster Ember: coming in on right
[15:11] Linus Lacombe: oh yes, two on top not rezzin
[15:11] Rain (eochai): Nini, Tepic :)
[15:12] Arnold (gager): Night.
[15:12] Tepic Harlequin: night all!
[15:12] Solace Fairlady: top right trying to rez in
[15:12] Darlingmonster Ember: coming in on left
[15:12] Linus Lacombe: here they come in
[15:12] Darlingmonster Ember: grand
[15:12] Solace Fairlady: there they are
[15:12] Osric Worbridge: 3 lions rampant, can see them
[15:13] Edward Pearse: Now, the top three are all "Lion Rampant"
[15:13] Edward Pearse: Just to give you an idea of the artistic differences that still happen with an identical charge
[15:14] Edward Pearse: "Rampant" is three legs raised in the air
[15:14] Sera (serafina.puchkina): I didn't know that
[15:14] Edward Pearse: Each of the positions of the lions has a different word to describe it
[15:14] Edward Pearse: Sejent, passant, Statant
[15:14] Linus Lacombe: What's the one saucily stick out his tongue called?
[15:15] Edward Pearse: Facing the front?
[15:15] Linus Lacombe: Yes, second from right, bottom row
[15:15] Edward Pearse: Lion Rampant Guardant
[15:15] Darlingmonster Ember: ooo
[15:15] Edward Pearse: The Guardant means the face of the beast it towards the viewer
[15:15] Darlingmonster Ember: nods
[15:16] Edward Pearse: Ah
[15:16] Edward Pearse: Now
[15:16] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): ( thought he was just looking for a date)
[15:16] Edward Pearse: One of the biggest myths about heraldry is the existence of a "family" coat of arms
[15:17] Osric Worbridge: indeed
[15:17] Edward Pearse: No. Such. Thing.
[15:17] Linus Lacombe: Though certain genealogical concerns are quite apt to try to sell you one.
[15:17] Edward Pearse: A coat of arms is like a title, you have to wait for the previous owner to die before you can lay claim to it
[15:17] Osric Worbridge: ((Scam))
[15:18] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Although when one is a member of a clan, he is allowed to display his Chief's arms. Just like any retainer to a Lord.
[15:18] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Wait but are there not certain combinations that are linked to lands?
[15:18] Edward Pearse: Yes, there are businesses referred to as "bucket shops" who will sell you anything based on your surname
[15:18] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Land and names
[15:18] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Isnt that where the myth than comes from
[15:19] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): the Kent area has the infamouse Cinque Port arms. Look at Hastings and Dover.
[15:19] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Many families also re-use certain displays from father to son.
[15:19] Edward Pearse: IF, and it's a big if, the titles is entailed to the property, then yes arms goes with the land, but they're rather rare now days
[15:19] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): arms of English Kings, for existence. You should see the arms of William and Mary sometiem.
[15:20] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): sometime*
[15:20] Edward Pearse: And if we can keep the questions for the end, for now :-)
[15:22] Edward Pearse: No, since only one person at a time may hold an achievement of arms
[15:22] Edward Pearse: There comes into play a system called Cadency
[15:22] Edward Pearse: This means you overlay the original arms with a mark to show you're in line to inherit
[15:24] Edward Pearse: If you look across to my right, the bottom row shows the arms of the various sons of Queen Elizabeth II
[15:25] Edward Pearse: Charles on the far left, then Andrew, followed by William and Harry
[15:25] Edward Pearse: The diamond above them is Beatrice
[15:25] Edward Pearse: Since she's a girl she doesn't get a shield, she has a lozenge
[15:26] Ceejay Writer coughs
[15:26] Solace Fairlady: tastier
[15:26] Jimmy Branagh: Reeeeecola ...
[15:26] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): ...she can use a shield if she wants....its not required.
[15:26] Linus Lacombe: Cherry or menthol?
[15:26] Edward Pearse: When Elizabeth dies, the marks will then change with the succession
[15:27] Edward Pearse: Obviously, not everyone inherits the main arms
[15:28] Edward Pearse: Second and third sons usually add a change to show they are related but still have their own personal arms
[15:28] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Marks of Cadency arent marks of succession. THey're marks to show which son you are. Until you're granted your own arms...
[15:28] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): they dont change with death.
[15:28] Edward Pearse: We'll discuss that at the end if you like
[15:29] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Just helping :D
[15:29] Edward Pearse: Here's some examples of how arms may change with generations and marriages
[15:29] Rain (eochai): Thats when ay use Voodoo Zombies.
[15:30] Edward Pearse: Cadency is done a little differently in Scotland
[15:31] Edward Pearse: Usually noted with a border around the arms, rather than a label over it
[15:31] Addison Greymyst: Sorry to have to leave - thank you all - very informative - take care
[15:32] Edward Pearse: As you can see here the original coat of arms stays the same on the left as it passes from generation to generation
[15:32] Darlingmonster Ember: wow
[15:34] Edward Pearse: Now I think just about everyone on the planet heard about a small royal wedding last year
[15:34] Bookworm Hienrichs chuckles.
[15:34] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[15:35] Solace Fairlady: so the Royal heralds scurried to invent her a coat of arms?
[15:35] Edward Pearse: Test
[15:35] Osric WorbridgeOsric Worbridge nods
[15:35] Ceejay Writer: (quietly interjects that tips for our speaker and the venue can be paid to the Salon signs at the rear of the room, thank you!)
[15:35] Edward PearseEdward Pearse kicks lag
[15:36] Edward Pearse: And yes, the Middleton arms were done in a hurry
[15:36] Edward Pearse: Hers are the top left.
[15:36] Edward Pearse: The blue bow indicates an unmarried woman
[15:36] Solace Fairlady: pretty ribbon!
[15:36] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington): the one with the naff bow?
[15:36] Linus Lacombe: Well, isn't that a jaunty little arms she has
[15:36] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington): yup, one with the bow rofl
[15:37] Darlingmonster Ember: gorgeous
[15:37] Edward Pearse: Once she was married and became Duchess of Cambridge her arms changed to those in the middle
[15:37] Darlingmonster Ember: ah
[15:37] Edward Pearse: Half middleton, half Prince William
[15:37] Solace Fairlady: will her arms, with or without bow, be used again by anyone?
[15:37] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): England's
[15:37] Linus Lacombe: If families have no arms, why are those Middleton arms?
[15:38] Edward Pearse: William's, not Englands
[15:38] Linus Lacombe: oops, not holding questions til the end...sorry
[15:38] Solace Fairlady: sorry!
[15:38] Darlingmonster Ember notes the demerits down
[15:38] Darlingmonster Ember smiles
[15:38] Solace Fairlady enjoys the detention afterwards far too much
[15:38] Edward Pearse: Now, some families will keep the quartering to show they have a really good pedigree when it comes to important people
[15:39] Stereo Nacht: o.O
[15:39] Osric Worbridge: Those always make me laugh.
[15:39] Edward Pearse: Some get a little carried away in my opinion
[15:39] Solace Fairlady: omg
[15:39] Darlingmonster Ember: ahem... this was before facebook icons, of course
[15:39] Linus Lacombe: Pretty quilt!
[15:39] Darlingmonster Ember: smirks
[15:39] Solace Fairlady: compensating, perhaps?
[15:39] Bookworm Hienrichs: Good gravy!
[15:40] Edward Pearse: Possible one of those with an important title but flat broke
[15:40] Ceejay Writer: I'm blind!
[15:40] Mumsy Abigail (mumsy): and three arms
[15:40] Darlingmonster Ember: laughs, broke from all the paperwork of that crest
[15:40] Solace Fairlady: 6 heralds ended up in an asylum compiling that
[15:40] Darlingmonster Ember: heee
[15:41] Solace Fairlady: they dropped that one
[15:41] Edward Pearse: These were the arms for the Emperor of Austria Hungry as of 1915
[15:42] Ceejay WriterCeejay Writer SO wants to tidy up that crooked cross.
[15:42] Bookworm HienrichsBookworm Hienrichs chuckles.
[15:42] Linus Lacombe: Crowns of Austria and Hungary I assume
[15:43] Osric Worbridge: a semi of estoiles
[15:44] Bookworm Hienrichs: D'oh!
[15:44] Bookworm Hienrichs: I was wondering...
[15:44] Solace Fairlady: heavy armour
[15:44] Ceejay Writer: He had managed a good long stretch without crashes.
[15:45] Solace Fairlady: yes indeed!
[15:45] Solace Fairlady: topping the leaderboard
[15:45] Darlingmonster Ember quickly puts back the widget in the sim chassis before anyone suspects
[15:45] Solace Fairlady: welcome back your Grace!
[15:46] Solace Fairlady: ah phoenix double
[15:46] Bookworm Hienrichs: Spoke too soon.
[15:46] Darlingmonster Ember: aha, I see I'm not the only one with teh double crash on new viewers
[15:46] Osric Worbridge: perhaps a Doppelgänger
[15:47] Satu Moreau: Sorry, but I have to go
[15:47] Satu Moreau: Take care all! And thanks, Mr. Pearse!
[15:47] Darlingmonster Ember: waves to M Moreau
[15:47] Solace Fairlady: safe travels satu!
[15:47] Satu Moreau: Hope to see it up on the notning
[15:47] Jimmy Branagh: Byee Satu!
[15:47] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Everyday at least once a day I crash
[15:47] Edward PearseEdward Pearse holds his breath
[15:48] Edward Pearse: OK, and these arms are for the university of Plymouth, granted as recently as 2008
[15:48] Ceejay Writer holds the dukes breath in a sturdy test tube.
[15:48] Solace Fairlady: for analysis later?
[15:48] Edward Pearse: And I'm going to skip over the Battle of Barnet story since we started so late
[15:49] Edward Pearse: Ceejay, would you like to issue numbers for the questioners? :-)
[15:50] Ceejay Writer: Ummmmmmm okay!
[15:50] Ceejay Writer: Those with questions, please state your name to me.
[15:50] Edward Pearse: Since hand won't work :-)
[15:51] Ceejay Writer: I have one in the queue. Queue going once, going twice....
[15:51] Linus Lacombe: I fear I must say good night...my supper is goig to be out of the oven in just acouple of minutes. Thank you for a fascinating talk, Mr Pearse
[15:51] Edward Pearse: Ask away then
[15:51] Darlingmonster Ember: travel safe M Lacombe
[15:51] Ceejay Writer: Also, another reminder tht tips may be paid to the posters at the rear of the venue, t hank you!
[15:51] Edward Pearse: Travel safe
[15:52] Ceejay Writer: Right then - Ethan Paul, your question?
[15:52] Linus LacombeLinus Lacombe waves and vanishes
[15:52] Jimmy Branagh: Noight Mr. Linus!
[15:52] Solace Fairlady: be well Linus, enjoy your supper;0
[15:52] Osric Worbridge: http://www.barnet.gov.uk/index/leisure-culture/libraries/archives/archives-histories/archives-barnethistories/archives-barnet-battleofbarnet.htm
[15:52] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): When two power countries lets say england and spain arange to have two equal rulers marry how is the coat of arms decided for the heir ?
[15:53] Darlingmonster Ember: oooo great question
[15:53] Solace Fairlady: round the back, last one standing wins?
[15:53] Darlingmonster Ember: arms wrestling... best two outta three
[15:53] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): hehe
[15:53] Edward Pearse: Usually, the arms would be divided on the shield like Kate Middleton's
[15:54] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): Would that then blend into a new country
[15:54] Edward Pearse: The male on the dexter (left as you face the shield) side
[15:54] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Dimidated.
[15:54] Edward Pearse: Well when Richard I was King of England, he didn't really care about it much
[15:55] Edward Pearse: He was more interested in his lands in Normandy and Aquitain
[15:55] Edward Pearse: But "King" is a good title
[15:55] Edward Pearse: And England gave him gold to bugger off on crusade
[15:55] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): When people marry, thier arms can be dimidated. They do not create a new country, because the right of Kingship falls to the male. Wimminz cant be king. Unless your name is Elizabeth.
[15:55] Osric Worbridge: Queen Mary of England remained Sovereign while married to King Phillip of Spain.
[15:56] Edward Pearse: When James the VI of Scotland inherited the throne of England his personal arms were revised to show the two Kingdoms
[15:56] Edward Pearse: But the two remained separate countries
[15:57] Edward Pearse: And did for another 200 years
[15:57] Jimmy Branagh: Oy've got to run! Thenks Duke Edward faw a gryte Salon! Noight all!
[15:57] Darlingmonster Ember applauds
[15:57] Arnold (gager): Night.
[15:57] Stereo Nacht: Good night Mr. Branagh!
[15:57] Darlingmonster Ember: splendid stuff
[15:57] Solace Fairlady: Goodnight master Jimmy!
[15:57] Solace Fairlady applauds
[15:57] Jimmy Branagh applauds and waves
[15:57] Ceejay Writer: goodnight Jimmy!
[15:57] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): fantastic!
[15:57] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): The marriage between Mary and Phillip was decided upon by rule of Parliament.
[15:57] Edward Pearse: Night Jimmy
[15:58] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): they only agreed to it if England didn't become Spain's pet
[15:58] Solace Fairlady: Thank you Sir Edward for a fascinating talk, very inmspiring to furter personal research!
[15:58] Darlingmonster Ember: keen
[15:58] Ethan Paul III (lifedancer): lol
[15:58] Edward Pearse: Couple of linkies for people
[15:58] Darlingmonster Ember: gets out pen
[15:59] Edward Pearse: So, yes the current arms for Elizabeth show the Royal Arms of England in the two corners and the arms of Scotland and Ireland in the other two
[15:59] Edward Pearse: Wales doesn't get a look in :-)
[15:59] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): Unless shes in Scotland, and then they are switched
[15:59] Solace Fairlady: bot of course:)
[15:59] Edward Pearse: Yep
[15:59] Edward Pearse: The Use and Abuse of the Coat of Arms and Crest
By William Armstrong Crozier (published 1905)
[15:59] Darlingmonster Ember: oh?
[15:59] Edward Pearse: http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Faq.htm
[16:00] Edward Pearse: Pssst! Want to Buy Your Family's Coat of Arms?
[16:00] Ceejay Writer looks at her watch and meeps, and must be elsewhere in one minute precisely. "Edward, this was fascinating, I honestly had no clue of the intriciaties!"
[16:00] Stereo Nacht: Good night Miss Writer!
[16:00] Edward Pearse grins, "and this is the basics"
[16:00] Ceejay Writer: Adn again, everyone, please support Salon! The posters at the rear of the venue await your generous assistance.
[16:00] Cullan (cullan.padroclum): We could go beyond, into the simple rules of tincture...
[16:00] Mumsy Abigail (mumsy)Mumsy Abigail applauds
[16:01] Ceejay Writer: Good evening, one and all!
[16:01] Edward Pearse: Take care
[16:01] Darlingmonster Ember: /me applauds
[16:01] Darlingmonster Ember: /me applauds
[16:01] Solace Fairlady: Thank you so much your Grace, and done with sio many trials to get through as well!
[16:01] Bookworm Hienrichs: Any other questions for Edward?
[16:02] Edward Pearse: Speak now or forever hold your peace
[16:02] Osric Worbridge: Which of the 2 signs is for his Grace?
[16:02] Bookworm Hienrichs: Either.
[16:02] Darlingmonster Ember: waves to all
[16:02] Darlingmonster Ember: flits
[16:02] Bookworm Hienrichs: Well, thank you, those who are left, for coming.
[16:02] Stereo Nacht: Good night Miss Ember!
[16:02] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me chuckles.
[16:03] Bookworm Hienrichs: We shall do our best to iron out the rough spots for next month's Salon!
[16:03] Solace Fairlady: Goodnight all, and thank you again for the salon, Miss Book and Miss Sera!
[16:03] Stereo Nacht: Good night Miss Solace!
[16:03] Stereo Nacht: And good night everyone!
[16:03] Edward Pearse: Thanks for coming everyone and thanks for your patience :-)
[16:03] Stereo Nacht: Thank you Sir Edward, it was quite instructive!
[16:03] Vic Mornington (victor1st.mornington): g'night folks!
[16:03] Arnold (gager): And nw that eveyon'esleft I have thecrash threats.
[16:04] Edward Pearse: Must have been your turn
[16:05] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me sighs. "That could have gone better."
[16:05] Edward Pearse: Ah well
[16:05] Osric Worbridge: Glad to see you were able to make it to the event Miss Book.
[16:06] Edward Pearse: At least my music didn't crash :-)
[16:06] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me chuckles.
[16:06] Bookworm Hienrichs: And glad to see you, Mr. Worbridge.
[16:06] Edward Pearse: Well, I'll leave you to it. Travel safe everyone
[16:07] Bookworm Hienrichs: Good day, sir.
[16:07] Osric Worbridge: Good day
[16:07] Bookworm Hienrichs: /me flits away herself.
[16:07] Osric Worbridge: Time to go build
Girl Genius for Wednesday, May 22, 2013
12 hours ago